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A Discussion With Donnellwrites On Decolonization, Tithing And The Institution Of Church Copy

Apr 21, 2024

Trigger Warning: Please listen with your best interest in mind

In this thought-provoking episode, Jennifer invites Donnell, a passionate advocate for rethinking and reimagining religious beliefs, to discuss the concept of deconstruction - freedom through understanding and love.

You can listen to the full episode via Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or YouTube.

Key Highlights:

- Jennifer and Donnell delve into the importance of keeping an open mind to different perspectives in the realm of religion.

- They highlight how Donnell's work focuses on love and liberation, aiming to free individuals from the confines of rigid religious interpretations.

- Donnell shares his approach to content creation, emphasizing well-researched, engaging videos designed to encourage viewers to think critically and find personal freedom.

- The conversation touches on the challenges and rewards of pursuing such a liberating yet sensitive mission without direct financial compensation.

- Donnell invites listeners to support his mission and shares how they can connect with him and contribute to his efforts.

Check out the full transcript at the end.

Donnell McLachlan

Instagram & TikTok: @donnellwrites

YouTube: DonnellWrites

Support Donnell's work via Zelle & CashApp: donnellwrites

Jennifer Wiley

Facebook -

Instagram -

TikTok - @thejenniferexp

LinkedIn -

Until we meet again, we wish all our listeners well and peace. Thank you for tuning in to this important conversation.


Full episode transcript:

[00:00:09] Jennifer: My guest today is Donnell McLachlan, born and raised in Chicago, Illinois. He is a writer, theologian, educator, and social justice advocate dedicated to fostering a more empathetic and inclusive society through the avenues of education, research, and storytelling. With a focus on black faith and life, his research delves into various aspects, including liberation theologies, women theology and the black church and the social and historical and spiritual significance of hip hop music and culture. A highly sought after voice, McLachlan has built a community of over 350, 000 across social media platforms. There he educates on topics ranging from religious deconstruction and decolonization to black history and culture, while also providing insightful, progressive, social, and political commentary. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome everyone, my guest today, Donnell McLachlan. I invite you all to listen in. As I always say, listen with your best interest in mind, trigger warning, trigger warning, trigger warning, because we are going to talk about some things that some people do not want to talk about and may be, affecting, your mind state and your mental health. So if we start speaking on things that are too heavy for you, feel free to log off and come back later. It's okay. I want you to, like I said, listen with your best interest in mind. This show is for educational purposes, to educate you in most of all for you. So with that, Donnell, it is my honor and pleasure to have you here today, sir. Thank you for agreeing to come on Different Perspectivez. Let me thank you in advance cause you're probably going to be the reason I go viral. So I appreciate you in advance, sir, for your knowledge and your study and your time.

[00:01:58] Donnell: Thank you for having me.

[00:01:59] Jennifer: Oh yes, yes, yes. It's like I said, it's my pleasure. There are many nights I look at your Instagrams and I go, wow. I'm speechless. I just go, Wow, seriously. I know I'm not the only one that does that. And so that's a good thing. So I wanted to give you a chance to go over some things because even though I've done my study of theology and some things, I know that I'm not a profound theologian like yourself. And so I wanted to have you on and let's talk about this stuff and let's really get into it, so that we can help the people today. So, I gave you some stuff that we were going to talk about, ladies and gentlemen. I gave him some pre topics so he would already know. No surprises here. And you all can write me later about it. Don't blame him, blame me. So, decolonizing while deconstructing. Now, Donnell, seriously, we hear people say these two words.

[00:02:53] Donnell: Yeah.

[00:02:54] Jennifer: I know he's irritated already. We hear people say these two words all the time. Black people, do you really know what this means? Do you? I urge you to listen to what Donnell has to say. And then, before you speak this again on social media, make sure you take into consideration if you really know what it means. Now, now, give us your perspective on decolonizing while deconstructing.

[00:03:20] Donnell: Okay, so those two words are, like you said, have been used a lot by people who, you know, agree with it people who disagree with it. And in a lot of cases, you know, maybe both parties don't fully understand what it means how it applies and, you know, how you go about the practice of it. To kind of simplify it because one of the things that comes up often when I do the work is that I'm trying to be mindful of the language that I'm using so that, you know, it's accessible to people who aren't in these higher education spaces and who aren't having these conversations with these highbrow folks about, theology and philosophy and all these different things. So put simply, I think I would explain deconstruction and decolonization. At the core is, about asking questions about, thinking critically and these are things that we do throughout our lives. Like, even if you grow up in the church, even if you have come from a very religious background. You know, there are things that you encounter even as a child that make you, you know, wonder that make you have questions. And a lot of times in the church spaces that we grew up in, these questions are kind of dismissed. They're kind of, you know, shoved to the side. They're not really engaged. And a lot of times it's because the people who were asking these questions of, you know, don't really know how to answer them and maybe don't have the education, just don't have the, the desire to engage in some of these questions.

[00:04:44] Jennifer: Mm hmm. Talk about that.

[00:04:46] Donnell: So that's at the root of it. It's about, thinking critically about, the spaces and the systems that you're in and thinking about where they came from, who designed them, how are they impacting my everyday life. And stuff like that. So another way I would describe deconstruction is a taking apart. Right. So like you, and a lot of people think that deconstruction is you were just tearing apart the church. We're just complaining about everything that's wrong with it. But a lot of people who are in the so called deconstruction space or who are asking questions or reimagining or rethinking religion and spirituality, they're coming to it from the perspective of having a deep relationship and connection to that space. And that's why they are either confused or that's why they even want to answer the questions in the first place. Because if you don't care, you will see something you like, Oh, I'm out of here, you know, but these are coming from people who actually have a deep connection with the church, but who are, you know, maybe confused or, don't understand why we believe certain things or way or why we, you know, act in certain ways that seem antithetical or the opposite of the way that we were taught to practice religion, which is about love and inclusivity and stuff like that, you know. So all of that is a part of the deconstruction process. It's about taking things apart and being able to see, kind of the flaws and the things that are in there that harm people. I think decolonization and deconstruction is about harm reduction,

[00:06:17] Jennifer: Harm reduction.

[00:06:18] Donnell: Yes.

[00:06:19] Jennifer: Did y'all hear that? Decolonization and deconstruction is about harm reduction, harm reduction, because there's harm being done where?

[00:06:32] Donnell: To the people. So if people are in a system or in a church or in an institution, and they're being harmed, they're being unheard, they're being abused, etc. Like, we have to think about why that is because. You know, a lot of times it's not intentional, you know, it's not people just don't understand how these thought process and how these beliefs harm people. And what it makes them struggle with mentally and that's why we're getting all these people who are suffering from depression and who are, you know, who are dissociating and things like that because. There's just unaddressed harm that's perpetuated because no one is rethinking about, why we believe the things that we do and where do these beliefs come from and how do they actually impact the day to day lives of the people. And so, for me, that's what's at the heart of those big words, those words of decolonization and deconstruction. For me, it's about harm reduction, it's about thinking critically. Right. Criticizing, you know, what, you know, the systems to the end of harm reduction, like you're trying to, think about how, what we believe impacts the people in the pews and how we can take into account with education and with critical thinking, how to rethink and reimagine those systems in a way that builds a better community.

[00:07:49] Jennifer: Now, why

do you think so many traditional Christians reject this idea of wanting to assess where harm is being done or wanting to not acknowledge that there is harm being done with certain practices that are in the church?

[00:08:04] Donnell: I think a lot of people, one, just see the people who are interrogating these things, who are bringing these questions up, who are talking about the harm, they see those people as just like agitators or anti church. They think that they're trying to tear apart the church as opposed to, no, I actually love the church and I want us to be better, and I want things to shift and I want us to rethink about how, what we're doing impacts people. But those people who are coming with heart and compassion and empathy are being seen as divisive, as agitating, as irritants, as people who are disrupting the status quo. And a lot of people feel like they know enough about God and spirituality. So, we used to grow up singing in the church, you can't make me doubt him. I know too much about him. Right? That's messaging that we're getting, like, hey, I know everything I need to know about Jesus. I know everything I need to know about the church. There's nothing that you can do to make me think differently, to make me, you know, ask questions, and we celebrated that, but that, you know, there's harm in that too, right? What is the harm in not being able to think critically and have questions of doubt and have moments where you're, you know, asking a question about, you know, what I believe and how this is impacting me.

[00:09:17] Jennifer: Yeah. Yeah. I heard Bishop Yvette Flunder say in response to some of the things that Carlton Pearson believed that God is still speaking and we take the Bible as that's it. There's no other missions, words, messages from God. That's it. That's all he said. And he has nothing else to say. And when she said it like that, I thought that is so profound, but so simple. Who are we to say that God is done speaking?

[00:09:45] Donnell: And I think that people don't even understand what that means in context.

[00:09:48] Jennifer: No, they don't. But, I mean, the, whole idea that he would be done speaking is ludicrous in itself.

[00:09:54] Donnell: Yeah. But people think that God is still speaking, but they believe that God is saying the same things. You know, so if they have an interpretation of the Bible, it's like, you know, this is what God has said, you know, and they just don't think that, you know, they're not applying critical thinking about, like, how these words, you know, don't always translate to the modern times. Stuff like that. So when people say God is still speaking, they're like, yeah, and they talk about the living, breathing word of God, right? As these legalistic kind of, you know, character judgments and, you know, qualifications of what's sin and what's not. But when Reverend Yvette Flunder says God is still speaking, it's like, no, God is speaking to the current moment. God is speaking to the moment that we're in. God is, you know, reaching out to those who have been neglected, who've been overlooked. Because God is a God of justice, right? That's the whole point. If God is a God of justice and God is still speaking, why would not be God speaking up about injustice?

[00:10:52] Jennifer: Why wouldn't he? Right.

[00:10:54] Donnell: Yeah, like why wouldn't he be speaking up about injustice?

[00:10:57] Jennifer: Right.

[00:10:58] Donnell: Or why wouldn't God?

[00:10:59] Jennifer: And I'm with you there. I'm with you on that. Like I said, I just feel like many people can't get past what they already know. And whatever they already know, if it was good enough for their grandmother and good enough for her grandmother and good enough for the grandma behind them, then it's good enough for us.

[00:11:16] Donnell: That's that song that old time religion. Yeah, you ever heard

[00:11:19] Jennifer: and and I have, I have, and I think what's happened is the generations are saying no, it's not,

[00:11:26] Donnell: We don't

[00:11:26] Jennifer: Not good enough, yeah, it's not, that's, that's not true, that's, you know, that's, that's ludicrous, and we're not standing for that, and I mean, no, we're not, so yes, thank you for explaining what that means, so please, I don't want to hear nobody else, please. If you've heard this podcast, do not. Now you know what it means.

[00:11:44] Donnell: if you think these words mean keeping up the status quo and just doing things the way that they have been done, no matter who gets harmed, then you have a fundamental misunderstanding.

[00:11:54] Jennifer: Okay. Thank you. I appreciate that. Appreciate that. You did a post about learning to value LGBT plus persons. And you gave some interesting books that helped you.And coming since I'm an LGBT person, I'm interested to hear what those books gave you and what's your perspective on learning to value because I thought that word was so because most people say we, you know, we try to love people where they are and it gets on my last nerve and we try to love them, you know, we love them and love even though we don't agree with them and that type of thing. So I thought learning to value was one of the most sincere statements I have ever heard. So I want to know where did you come to that place and what brought you there?

[00:12:36] Donnell: I want to begin by kind of where I started from, of course as a kid growing up, I grew up Apostolic Pentecostal. It was very Yeah, so, very, you know, legalistic, very, you know, marriages between man and woman. There is often, not often, I would say regularly, disparaging comments, you know, made about LGBT folks in the pulpit and not in the pulpit in everyday conversations. So, you know, those are the lessons that I was internalizing and, you know, all it takes is for you to go to school. But I've always been committed to the idea of love. And I feel like that's where a lot of my deconstruction right started was me seeing us talk about love and seeing how we treated certain people and me literally seeing those two things and being like, this doesn't look like, okay. What we say that we're supposed to be doing. And so I was having those internal questions and I didn't really have many people to process that with. But you just grow up and you keep on living. And, you know, I eventually went to, a very diverse high school, went to, a very diverse liberal arts school and here in Chicago called Columbia, it's an art school, very diverse people from all different perspectives, from different, you know, gender and sexual backgrounds and things like that. And it was, a lot of it started with me hearing people's stories. And hearing people talk about how religion had harmed them, and my heart being receptive and open to, you know, to hearing these people's stories and having that personal shift. So by the time I got to seminary, started learning about, theology and, sexuality and queer theology and all these different things. I was prepared already because my heart had already been open to being wrong. My heart had already bore witness to the fact that what I had seen the church teach was not what I saw them practice specifically, and especially towards the LGBTQ+ community.So it was, Seminary and learning about, these different theologies really shifted everything and left me open and a womanism, I would say, Alice Walker's womanism and the womanist theologians that came from, from that moment, the first and second waves of people historically who agitated and who asked questions and who brought a hermeneutics of suspicion, meaning they asked questions about what they were reading and if it didn't feel right to them, they held space for that. And so that's where I'm coming from. And from there, I've always made it a point to, in my work, teach people about these different perspectives, show them how my heart changed. So teach them information, that helped me, you know, shift my perspective from what I was taught to what I learned and how I was open to that. And so that's kind of been my journey. So in the education piece, obviously solidified a lot of that. It helped me be able to stand firm in what I believe, knowing my history and knowing the history of sexuality in Africa before colonialism, meaning before Europeans got there, we were seeing different expressions of gender and sexuality that ranged all over the spectrum. And we tell those stories are out there, you know, those stories are out there and that history is out there, but people want to deny that history because they want to, you know, discriminate against LGBTQ+ folks more, because it challenges everything that they had ever been taught about, you know, what's right, you know, people don't want to do that work. It's scary because it means like, if this is wrong, then what else is wrong. And I think that's the fear that prevents people from, you know, digging deeper and questioning what they've been taught.

[00:16:17] Jennifer: See, that's what I was going to ask you. One of the things you just said, and it struck me in your first statement when I said, how did you get there? You said, well, one of the things I did was go to school. I know a lot of lot, a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot of preachers who have gone to school and, and they're not preaching that it's okay. They have not changed. And that is what is mind blowing to me. If you are a theologian or true theologian, then you know the truth. Now, my question is, why is that not being told in the local church?

[00:16:49] Donnell: Becausewe have to remember that in the church space, especially like the strains of thought and theology, they tend to be conservative, you know, they tend to be, women shouldn't be allowed to preach. They don't have programs where women can preach. And these are accredited seminaries. That don't allow women to go to, you know, to learn how to be pastors because it's against the Bible in their mind. You have people who, you know, all types of theology that's like, that leans conservative. So, for me, my professor, my spiritual mother is Dr. JoAnne Marie Terrell, who studied, under James Cone, who is the father of Black Liberation Theology. So that's the strain of theological thought that I come from. And so, a lot of people are not going to be getting taught about interreligious engagement learning about other religions and seminary, that's not a thing that is common. My seminary did that because it leaned more progressive and it has a history of like, you know, progressive, activism and stuff like that in theology. So, the more common thing that's going to happen is that people are not going to know about or not going to get taught about the importance of valuing women or valuing LGBTQ+ folks. They're not getting taught that. So I feel like that's why, people like me who come from that school and are doing this work in the public square. This is new information to people, you know, they're most people, they pastors may not go to school, but some people pastors did go to school and they are educated, but they're not teaching about these things. And, you know, it may, it does make you wonder, like,

[00:18:25] Jennifer: Well, and I mean, it makes me wonder even about the people now that are more so your age or even my age, that I know they know, and you know, they may be in a, already in a church system, you know, where they're already appointed to a church or they're already at a local church and they're still, and I think it's not because they don't know. I think they're scared to really say what they know, because if you look on Facebook, I saw like three or four posts this week, a couple of my friends have become doctors, theologians, and I know they know, and it's like to me, but you still are part of a church body that condemns it. So it's like, how do you reconcile and mind you, I'm not all my friends out there, please. I'm not judging you. Okay. I'm simply presenting a different perspective. It blows my mind. And it keeps me from walking in anyone's church, because I do not understand the contradiction of that. I cannot understand how you know better and won't tell the people.

[00:19:27] Donnell: I think what's not discussed enough are the consequences of what speaking up does and how it impacts you in your life. Your ability to connect to community to have a livelihood to these are decisions and things that people are weighing right? So they're a part of a body. They know that It might be wrong or that there's nothing wrong with LGBTQ+ folks or it's not sinful and we have to they know the history of that but saying that would make them, maybe lose their job, lose community, not be able to associate with the same people, get ostracized and talked about. It's like, these are the things that maintain these systems in the church, I feel like. And that's what people don't talk about. Cause I know for me, there are people who are deconstructing and stuff like that, who once they started asking questions, their whole church, you know, started treating them differently, or when they stopped going to church, people stopped talking to them and they lost their entire community. And now they're isolated and they're, you know, questioning if it was worth it. It's not right, but it's just the reality of, you know, what people have to face. And it's not just the church. It's like anyone who speaks truth to power risks that sort of alienation. Amanda Seales is going through that right now. Ashton's writing an op ed talking about why she's not likable, even though she provokes necessary, provoking yet necessary conversations, they said.

[00:20:49] Jennifer: Yeah.

[00:20:50] Donnell: If the conversations are necessary, why is she being punished by not being invited to black spaces? Why is she not, you know, embraced by the black community despite her speaking up about, you know, black history and, you know, it's like people don't care about that. They care about other things but these are the risks that people take when they choose to, go against what they've always known. And of course the prime example of that is Carlton Pearson, who even in his death had to deal with people fussing about his beliefs and how those beliefs impact how he gets buried. That's gross. But that, that's what we do in the church.

[00:21:22] Jennifer: Disrespectful. Yeah. I've had a friend of mine when I first came out, they told me I was brave because I was still, in the, you know, in ministry. And I tell people all the time, it was not about being brave. It was about, I just couldn't live like that. I got to a place where I could not live. I had to reconcile my spirituality with my sexuality. And then I decided I couldn't live like that. And then I decided I didn't care what you Negroes thought. I cared with who I thought God was and what He was to me. And once I got that peace in my soul, no one or nothing could convince me otherwise. Now everyone might be not as strong willed or stubborn as I am. But that's the place that I came to. And so then I got that reputation of, I'm going to say things that people don't want to say, especially, you know, about the church. Well, if I'm speaking the truth, then I don't think I'm doing something that's wrong. There are too many, LGBTQ teenagers that are killing themselves.

[00:22:20] Donnell: Yeah.

[00:22:21] Jennifer: Cause they're being taught in church that they're going to hell.

[00:22:24] Donnell: Mm

[00:22:25] Jennifer: People have asked me, do I allow my son to go and sit in people's churches? No, my son is 17. No. And you know why? Because it would be traumatic for someone to tell him his mother is going to hell when she is not because she is gay. I don't think that's something you should be telling a child. So no, And I don't feel bad about that at all. I don't feel convicted about that at all. I feel like I'm protecting my child. Now, the sad thing is I have to protect my child from the church.

[00:22:54] Donnell: Yeah.

[00:22:55] Jennifer: That's sad. I had to do a wedding of a couple who, when I counseled them, I found that their relationship was well intact and they had a great pastor and I couldn't help but ask them, why isn't your pastor marrying you? The saddest thing to me, and even though it was a beautiful wedding and I honor them for choosing me to be with them in that moment. It was a sad thing in my heart. Because what they told me is their pastor didn't realize that they were a transgender couple and they couldn't come out to their pastor because they knew if they did, the whole church would basically push them away, but the church had accepted them because they didn't know their true identity.

[00:23:31] Donnell: Yeah.

[00:23:32] Jennifer: One of the saddest things I've ever heard in my life, because this pastor had done a good job for the most part of teaching them the word, but had failed miserably in the most important part. And so they couldn't come to you, who's supposed to be their pastor to perform their marital rights, which is something you're supposed to be doing. To me, that's ridiculous. And it's shameful. And you know, it's like, I wanted to tell that pastor so bad, what are you doing? Like, so to me, I just, I don't understand if you know, why aren't you saying it? And if you 40 and under there's no reason why you shouldn't be saying it. No reason. So that's, that's just me. That's just me now. I

[00:24:07] Donnell: Yeah. I mean, this is, it's not, it's not a matter of opinion. It's a matter of like, this is life and death, you know, in a

[00:24:13] Jennifer: It really is life and, death and people not seeing it's life and death, but they will, so. Now we really about to make a mess. Tithing.

[00:24:24] Donnell: Let's talk about it. At this point, when we talk about tithing, this is a very calm issue for me. I'm not even like, oh, this Is like explosive. This, this is not,

[00:24:35] Jennifer: You cool as a fan, huh?

[00:24:36] Donnell: Hey, I'm cool. I'm chillin on this topic. I'm not scared. I ain't worry about it because you know. It's like, who going to check me? Who going to say something?

[00:24:44] Jennifer: Hey, ain't nobody gonna check you on here.

I cite my sources too. So if people need, just send me an email, if you need some resources, if you need some information, I can help you get what you need, but we're not going to do is act like I'm lying about something. Break, break, break down this tithing. Cause I know who I tithe to. You going to tell me I'm wrong for tithing an apple? Go ahead. I'm just, let me, let me go ahead and let you, go ahead and get on this tithing cause these people need to get free. Come on, tithe, tithe, tithe. Should you give your 10 percent to the church? the top of your check.

[00:25:20] Donnell: And this is one of the things when we're talking about, you know, people just not being truthful and not sharing information so I understand not knowing about, sexuality and not knowing about, women not being allowed to preach, if that's what your seminary taught you, that's what your great granddaddy taught you. Your grandfather, everybody passed it down. I get why you would believe that. That information is very, it's not being taught in seminaries. It's not being taught to people. And so I'm trying to disrupt that. I'm teaching people about these things. So, you know, there's going to be a little learning gap as people get more informed. But this issue of tithing, is very clear in terms of what it is. Like we tried anything that people teach about tithing and just trying to make it what it's not, but we can't change what it actually is.

[00:26:05] Jennifer: And what is it?

[00:26:06] Donnell: The tithe was a tenth of the produce of the land, right, that was given to support the Levites as their inheritance in return for the work they did while serving at the tenths of meeting. This was things set aside, in the temple, in the storehouse. And Jesus even talks about this, right? Jesus lays this out. People say Jesus talks about tithing, but what did Jesus say about tithing? Okay, if you would turn your Bible to Matthew 23:23, he said,

[00:26:34] Jennifer: Bibles!

[00:26:35] Donnell: He said, well, one to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, for you pay tithe of what of your check, right? Of your, no, that's not what he said. You pay tithe of mint and cumin, and have admitted the weightier matters of the law. Judgment, mercy, and faith.

[00:26:52] Jennifer: He didn't say your check.

[00:26:53] Donnell: No! It's a very known thing. That what was the tithe? It was grain, fruits, and animals from the herd and flock. Okay?

[00:27:01] Jennifer: My dear brother, what if you don't have grain and fruits and animal of the flock in 2024?

[00:27:07] Donnell: I don't know. We're not Judean, we're not Levites. So. I don't know why it would be

[00:27:12] Jennifer: So what do we make of this?

[00:27:14] Donnell: That tithing is not a command that Christians were told to follow biblically. There's no biblical basis for people where Jesus said that we people in the church have to tithe.

[00:27:27] Jennifer: Where did the misunderstanding come from then? I'm

[00:27:31] Donnell: It's not a misunderstanding, there was a decision. There were councils where people got together. There's a major council in the 1500s. people got together and decided that this was going to be a part of, you know, the church.

[00:27:48] Jennifer: How we fund the church.

[00:27:49] Donnell: This is going to be a part of it. People decided that, there was a council that decided this. And of course the Catholic church is the institution that spread the church globally through colonization and so forth and so on. So, and people always like to say, you know, Catholics and . Christians. Catholics are Christians. Okay. We probably wouldn't be Christians if there wasn't for Catholic Christians who, you know, decided to colonize the world and spread, Catholicism throughout the world. So

[00:28:20] Jennifer: My, my,

[00:28:20] Donnell: This is the reality of what we're talking about here. People decided to make this a part of, just like they decided on other things, like councils were decided where people were like trying to figure out, like, what do we believe Jesus is like. Okay. Like, people were having these conversations, and these councils and arriving to conclusions and using that to disseminate information to the public. And so fast forward, fast forward, we still do in this tradition of tithing.that was never instructed to us. That was never a command given to Christians. But your pastor will tell you that you're not going to be blessed if you don't tithe. Maybe not your pastor, I don't know who, but pastors will tell you that you're not going to be blessed if you don't tithe. That if you don't tithe, God's not going to open the windows of heaven and pour you out of blessings that you won't have room to

[00:29:08] Jennifer: Because you can't beat God's giving no matter hard you try.

[00:29:13] Music: (Singing)

[00:29:31] Donnell: And God loves a cheerful giver, right? So if you,

[00:29:33] Jennifer: The more he gives to you.

[00:29:35] Donnell: If you can't pay your light bill but you got that 10%, you just got to trust God. You give that 10 percent and your lights go off and you just hope that your food don't run out in that refrigerator. It's like, these are the decisions that people are weighing and and a lot of them are because of how they're taught, they're choosing to prioritize the church over their wellbeing, over their hierarchy of needs, their food, shelter, bills, et cetera.

[00:30:02] Jennifer: Have you ever got a check from God? I'm just curious. Have you ever got a check from God?

[00:30:06] Donnell: I don't know. I said, I heard checks in the mail. I just haven't, I ain't seen them. I look, to this day, I look, every time I get some mail, I'm like, I wonder if it's a check in here.

[00:30:14] Jennifer: It's not.

[00:30:14] Donnell: It don't be checks in there. You know, but they'll use that one time that it just so happened, someone just so happened to get a check in the mail. They'll tell that story and be like, for a testimony and say, yeah, I didn't have no, but I gave my last and God gave me a check in the mail. Or God provided this thing unexpectedly. And now all these people who are struggling with their finances are weighing, like are blaming themselves probably, you know, for their own financial situation, because they're, they aren't giving enough to the church or because they're not, I can't really go, I'm a chill. We have a lot of things to get through the next 30 minutes.

[00:30:48] Jennifer: I'm, just saying hey, so the bottom line is,

[00:30:50] Donnell: Yeah,

this is not about giving, giving is a different matter to me than tithing. Because

[00:30:58] Jennifer: We're talking about the 10 percent that you are being told you must give

[00:31:04] Donnell: Before taxes sometimes.

[00:31:06] Jennifer: Out of your check.

[00:31:07] Donnell: Yeah,

I'm a giver, you know,

[00:31:10] Jennifer: I'm a giver too. Me too, all the time. I know, plenty of homeless people.

[00:31:14] Donnell: I give all the time. That count too.

[00:31:16] Jennifer: It do. And I believe that's why I'm so blessed.

[00:31:19] Donnell: And let me tell you more blessed now than when I was trying to scrounge up 10 percent of my income to give to the church.

[00:31:25] Jennifer: You don't say?

[00:31:26] Donnell: Let's call a spade, a spade. Let's talk about it.

[00:31:28] Jennifer: Hey,

[00:31:29] Donnell: I'm just saying when your intention is different, when you move differently, and when you are intentional with the way that you give, and it's not just like out of some,

[00:31:36] Jennifer: But see, here's what people say all the time. God knows your heart, but the truth is God does. And that's what's important. He knows your heart. So he knows what you do. He knows if you give to people or not. He knows if your heart is sincere. So yeah. I'm with it. I'm with it. I'm glad. Thank you for that. Somebody needed to hear that from a theologian. Appreciate that.

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[00:33:07] Jennifer: The Super Bowl commercial, the Jesus commercial that everybody was talking about when they was washing feet and they were just going crazy about this commercial. Donnell said y'all got it wrong.

[00:33:20] Donnell: Yeah, you just got to follow the money. We live in a big old shopping mall. Okay. Everything costs something, everything expensive, everything is funded and run by money. And so when you file the money, you know what I'm saying? You get to the root of these things very clearly. So it's very odd that you're getting a Superbowl commercial. And if you're a Christian, you're not even thinking about it. You're thinking like, Oh, this is no big deal. You know, I rock with Jesus. Jesus does get me, you know what I'm saying? And people been saying it's their whole life, especially in the black church. Yeah. Jesus do get me. You know, because Jesus was also, you know, executed by the state for speaking up against the establishment. That's a whole nother conversation.

[00:33:56] Jennifer: Right.

[00:33:57] Donnell: And so, but when you get to the root of this, I did, you know, some research and this is this commercial, these commercials ran back again this year, because they happened last year, too, during the Super Bowl, and people were talking about it. But then after the Super Bowl, I started getting two videos on my TikTok. Jesus Gets Us videos on my TikTok and the advertisements, right? And what you're seeing, though, is the results of a billion dollar advertising campaign, fueled by some of the more concern

[00:34:25] Jennifer: Billion, dollar?

[00:34:27] Donnell: A billion dollar advertising campaign. Advertising and other programs and stuff like that around and related to the whole Jesus gets us, or He gets us, commercials.And these commercials come from and are funded by very conservative, people like who are, a lot of them are racist and, you know, sexist and, you know, homophobic and all these different things. But they're Christians, but they're using this money instead of meeting the need of. Oh, like the people are leaving the church. What's going on? Let's get to the root of that. Let's probably put some money towards programs that sustain the church or that, you know, people don't think like that. They're only thinking about how to manipulate people into, you know, doing this thing or believing this ideology. So instead of, you know, spending that money in a way that would have helped the church or help its cause, you get people spending a billion dollars on a marketing campaign to trick people or to, you know, convince people or to convert people, to the Christian faith. But it's coming from people who are doing really discriminatory things like, the founder of Hobby Lobby, I believe his name is David Green is one of the people that's behind this project. There's a few people that are involved with this project that are on the board for project 2025, which everyone has been talking about, which is the conservative agenda to use religion and to incorporate religion, into politics, into, school, media, education, all these different things. If you have to do look up and look into Project 2025, if you listen to this, you should know what it is, but it's already in play. They've already, appointed a lot of judges that, done a lot of things to, push conservative legislation, which is why we're seeing so much, you know, over the past couple of years, we've seen, probably the most legislation against LGBTQ+ folks in American history, like these bills have been so over the past couple of years, and it's coming from people who are funding Project 2025. And some of the people who are on that project are now at the same time while doing these things while funding these, you know, hate bills, basically, that I would call them. They are people telling you that Jesus gets us. These are the same people that have, an LGBT person getting their foot washed by a priest, trying to juxtapose the like identities and be like, Oh, this is the good person. This is the center that we're embracing, you know what I'm saying? And this is what we're talking about. I think this is what people always say. That's why they want to ban TikTok, but this is why they're trying to stop us from having these conversations, from getting this information out there. And from really realizing, you know, what's happening and what's at stake here. But if you don't know, that's where the hit He Gets Us Super Bowl commercials are coming from. From conservative, you know, a lot of them, you know, connected to hate groups who don't like LGBTQ+ folks, who are a part of Project 2025, and other government organizations that are trying to create laws to discriminate against, queer folks in America. And black folks and stuff like that. So it's like, it's not just about, you know, LGBTQ+ folks. It's multiple marginalized communities are being impacted by these organizations.

[00:37:30] Jennifer: Yeah. So, in other words, things are not really what they appear.

[00:37:33] Donnell: No,

[00:37:34] Jennifer: And you definitely got to follow the money, which we don't always do.

[00:37:38] Donnell: It's a very scary time, but the information is out there. One of the beauties of living in the information age is that it's out there. you have to know how to vet it and how to determine what's real and what's not. And that's what folks like me are doing with their platforms, trying to vet that information, provide it to the public so y'all can see, like, it's not what it appears. This is what's really going on. And so we not getting tricked every time because there it's an information war right now. People are flooding the internet, are flooding our schools with misinformation. They banned books now so that we don't have certain conversations, that's being done on purpose. And that's why it's important for us to support folks who are, doing this work and who have the courage to, really interpret and dig into some of the things that we're faced with today.

[00:38:19] Jennifer: Yeah, I agree. Thank you for that, Donnell, because listen, I saw that commercial and I thought, hmm.

[00:38:25] Donnell: Yeah.

[00:38:26] Jennifer: Why are they washing the gay person's foot?

[00:38:28] Donnell: Yeah. You see what I'm saying? They know what they're doing. They didn't even have to say nothing, but you see it and it's like,

[00:38:33] Jennifer: I peep a lot of stuff like now, especially like even in commercials. You know, there's a lot of now gay people in commercials, a lot of gay parents, gay families, and I'm looking at the companies that are targeting us, and then I go and Google who's behind the company. So yeah, now, on March 16th, you posted a clip where you went off.

[00:38:52] Clip: Everyone keeps talking about how the internet is unstable. So I made sure that when I saw this video, This is not an attempt to ban TikTok. It's an attempt to make TikTok better. Tic Tac Toe. A winner. I saved it to my phone because I want to remember, I want to have physical evidence of the time that these politicians played in our faces. It's the same lady that wore a kente cloth and took a knee during a pandemic to show solidarity with black lives. I forgot about that. You talking about, forget that. What? And there was other black people kneeling with her as a gag. And I'm like, what is they? Oh gee, who is these people? Why is they kneeling with this white lady in this Kente cloth? And then Joe Biden during his presidential election was like, if you don't vote for Joe Biden, you ain't black. If you have a problem figuring out whether you're for Mayor Trump and you ain't black, I forget that. And we let that slide. I was at the polls in November, 2020 time. I said, damn, I guess I'm not black if I don't vote for Joe. And then Kamala was like, we did it, Joe. And we never heard from her again until she said a ceasefire. Dramatic pause for about six weeks so that we can get that aid in there. I'm like, what are you talking? What must be an immediate ceasefire? For at least the next six weeks, what is currently on the table? Hillary Clinton went on a breakfast club with Charlemagne and Deezer and Vietnam. And so that she keep hot sauce in her bag What's what's something that you always carry with you hot sauce? But i'm trying to figure out how we get them to have pokemon go to the polls Then Trump and then Trump and them started selling sneakers and they was like the blacks love the sneakers This is connecting with black america because they love sneakers. They're into sneakers. They love the you know There's a big deal certainly in in the inner city So when you have Trump roll out his sneaker line, they're like, wait a minute, this is cool. He's reaching them on a level that defies and is above politics. Hey, stop fucking playing.

[00:40:54] Donnell: I did,

[00:40:55] Jennifer: And I said, now, Brother Donnell, are you alright? I mean, you went off and this brother just went all the way, throw to the curb, Negro off.

[00:41:05] Donnell: Yeah.

[00:41:05] Jennifer: So I'd like for you to not go off, but I'd like for you to explain yourself. So what was it? Cause I felt your soul was troubled.

[00:41:14] Donnell: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:41:15] Jennifer: I felt it in here, in my chest.

[00:41:17] Donnell: It's a lot.

[00:41:18] Jennifer: Now you can be a little easy on Joe. He shouldn't have said, but you know, Joe been saying stuff he shouldn't have been, Obama used to have to tell Joe, Joe, calm down Joe.

[00:41:26] Donnell: I should have went harder on Joe. Cause I left out the part, I left out the clip where Joe said, he was raised in the black church. I was raised for real in the black church.

[00:41:35] Jennifer: I bet you Joe be cussing out folks behind closed doors. I know he do. I know he do. Cause I know Obama used to tell him, Joe, I can't say that. I know he did. I know he did. But I mean, you just went all the way. And I mean, the sneakers should have made you mad. Sneakers made me mad. I said, man, he must really think we dumb.

[00:41:52] Donnell: It's crazy.

[00:41:53] Jennifer: Tell me why you went. off. Tell me why you was so troubled. Cause you, you were really troubled. At the end, it looked like you dropped the phone. I said, did he have a seizure?

[00:42:00] Donnell: No, I just, I just put the phone down. I was like, man, I'm not even, waste no more time. I'm real mad. I left that, I left out that Joe Biden black church video, but one of the things that I've noticed in my, as a researcher, you just know too much and then you see the clownery, it's just happening in front of your face. And you know what? A lot of people just not going to think about this stuff. A lot of people that are not realizing that they blatantly disrespecting us, as we would say in Chicago, they playing in our face. Like, you're not taking me seriously. You're literally dancing in front of my face. You telling me that one thing has happened and another thing is happening. And it's being done in a really gimmicky way.

[00:42:37] Jennifer: Ooh.

[00:42:38] Donnell: It's like really gimmicky. Like, Oh, I know black people like you know, Beyonce said, I keep hot sauce in my bag. So Hillary Clinton to go say, I put, I keep hot sauce in my bag at the breakfast club. Knowing good and well, she don't like none spicy. Can't convince me that Hillary Rodham Clinton, like none spicy,

[00:42:53] Jennifer: Would you believe Bill like some spice? You know?

[00:42:55] Donnell: I don't know. Yeah, I don't even know. I ain't gonna comment on Bill. I don't like him like that even. I'm trying to chill.

[00:43:03] Jennifer: Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. I'm trying to pump you. I'm gonna stop.

[00:43:05] Donnell: But it was really difficult. It was frustrating and sincereness. It was frustrating to see that, our elected officials really just playing these kind of games. And trying to like have punchy one liners and seemingly try to go viral by saying these kind of one liners, you know, in their political campaigns and stuff like that, the things that they're saying about, you know, black people and the media, what we like. I remember when Donald Trump got arrested, I left this part out too. Donald Trump got arrested and they said that he has more street cred because he has a mugshot now. And that makes him more popular with black folks.So this is the kind of things that like the book, the video was meant to be comedic, but it was also meant to be like, I'm not trying to look like I'm angry about this, but I need people to see this. And people don't see this. If I look like, if I'm mad about it, if I'm actually showing my true feelings about it, because I went off because that's how I was really feeling. And I, as a black man from Chicago, I really had to let that part come out. I couldn't let y'all forget that I'm from Chicago for one second. So I had to be like, Hey, this thing is happening. Like it's, it's, it's wild. What's happening. They playing in our face. And what I wanted people to get from that video is that it's the way that they see us in the, in these political spaces and the way that they think about us. they think that we like people going to jail and sneakers and hot sauce and people's bags and they think that that's enough to win us over, and it's frustrating. Yeah, I don't put hot sauce on every like I don't just be. It's frustrating that we're seeing these elected officials constantly do that, like kind of play these games with us, especially with something as serious as like, you know, what's happening, to the Palestinians. We know that the American public has been demanding a ceasefire. And for Kamala Harris, who hasn't really come outside, like we haven't seen her really come outside since she got elected. She'll come out and say a few things. But it's like for her to use one of her rare moments. And when she comes outside to kind of play this, you know, gimmicky game of, we gonna demand an immediate cease fire for the next six weeks. And kind of putting a pause in between that, it's like, I feel like that was done intentionally. It didn't sit right with me that that happened.And it feels like people aren't taking seriously our demands. That's what I, wanted to show people I wanted to put together a highlight because sometimes a lot of us will see one video and we won't see another video or we'll see this with y'all see that one time she did this, so like I just wanted to compile over the, since the pandemic, how the black community has been consistently, you know, disrespected and demeaned in a very public way of with politicians trying to kind of play these games to go viral.

[00:45:40] Jennifer: Uh,

[00:45:40] Donnell: Yeah.

[00:45:40] Jennifer: So let me ask you this. As a black man, you know, in Chicago, from Chicago, what is your take now with voting today? Because obviously, Trump being elected would be worse than Joe. I'm not saying Joe would be good, but I'm saying Trump would be worse. Where does that leave you? Because what you're acknowledging is that they're both playing in our faces, which I don't, I don't think respectfully is anything new.

[00:46:06] Donnell: Yeah.

[00:46:08] Jennifer: And I'm a bit older than you, so I don't think them playing in our faces is new. I think us acknowledging and speaking about it probably is a little bit newer this generation, the way that we deal with racism and discrimination is very different than the way Martin dealt with it. And I, I recognize that, a lot of the stuff that happened, you know, from George Floyd and on during that movement time and what's happening even now, this, especially the generation after you, they are not playing like you're not going to be able to just do anything to us and something not happened. And that's just not the way it's going to be. So I just wonder what this election coming up because the fact that Trump can even be still running, we all know that if Trump was a black man, there's no way he would be running with all these counts against, like, this is utterly ridiculous. So where does that leave you? Then do you say, well, I'm just not going to vote because neither one of them are good.

[00:47:07] Donnell: I did go to the polls on March 19th when it was time for us to go to the polls. I made a video encouraging people to go to the polls, on March 19th because of a referendum that was happening in Chicago called Bring Chicago Home, which was supposed to, you know, tax, properties in order to provide stable and sustainable housing for unhoused folks in Chicago. So that was the first thing that was going to be on the poll for people who are, on the ballot for people who are in Chicago. ballot question one, and I wanted people to try to, get out there because it's not just about voting isn't just about what's happening and, it's about what's happening in these local elections, and who are we empowering to have direct influence over our communities and stuff like that, and they'll ask questions about things, initiatives that we should take on in the city, including things like Bring Chicago Home. A lot of people didn't get out to vote on that day, like, it was one of, if I'm not mistaken, it was a pretty low voter turnout in Chicago, and the referendum ended up failing. I say all that to say that voting isn't just about. You know, Biden and Trump. So that's why I went and that's why I encourage people to go. Because it's important. It's important because there's obviously our history with voting and how people, you know, got imprisoned and murdered for trying to vote and that's our history. And the reason why that was happening and the reason why they try to keep up these voter suppression laws is because they know that there's power in the vote. So you see all these countries trying to enforce these laws that make it more difficult for people to vote. That's on purpose. They wouldn't be doing that. They wouldn't be wasting their time trying to create that sort of legislation if it didn't matter. So that's where I'm at with it. But as far as I didn't vote what just to be transparent. I I know I don't have to share this, but I did not vote for either during during the primary voting. I feel like whatever is happening needs to be done. They need to earn that vote from us and they need to know that. I think that we're serious about the consequences of not meeting the demands of the people. So that's where I stand with it. I encourage people to vote, and also, I chose to make that stance as a conscientious objector and, you know, choose to vote for independent, than, giving them that vote right now without knowing what they're going to do moving forward. And so I think Joe Biden is aware of that. The same thing happened. I forget what state it was. I think it was Michigan. or Minnesota where a lot of people voted uncommitted. There was over a hundred thousand people that voted uncommitted.These things are sending clear messages to them. People who are more obsessed with power than they are with helping people, that they will lose power if they don't help people.

[00:49:50] Jennifer: Mm, say that again.

[00:49:53] Donnell: People who are more obsessed with power than helping people will lose power if they don't help people.

[00:49:58] Jennifer: Did y'all hear that? Watch, that's gonna go down in history. You said something right there. You didn't feel the ground shake? I'm telling you, you said something. That's gonna be a clip, I watch. That's something right there. That was, that was earth shattering. I don't even want you to touch that. Just leave that be, because they need to marinate in people's souls. Because that goes for so many people in so many settings.

[00:50:17] Donnell: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:50:18] Jennifer: So you said something, you sure you're not a prophet? We'll talk about it.

[00:50:22] Donnell: Definitely., Yeah.

[00:50:24] Jennifer: I'll be knowing some stuff. Okay. So, is the institution of church whack?

[00:50:30] Donnell: Why is it whack? Why? Tell the truth?

[00:50:35] Jennifer: Listen. Ty said the institution of church is whack, man. It's whack. That's what he said. What he said. I'm just saying what he said. That's what he said. He

[00:50:47] Donnell: It is whack. That's what he stressed it out. He said, is whack.

[00:50:51] Jennifer: Whack.

[00:50:52] Donnell: Oh, I said, Oh, that was an underline whack. It was like, it's Whack.

[00:50:57] Jennifer: I was like, should I spell that W A C K or W A K?

[00:51:00] Donnell: W H A C K. Whack.

[00:51:03] Jennifer: Okay. All right. Well,

[00:51:05] Donnell: Mm hmm.

[00:51:06] Jennifer: I mean listen, I think he said the institution.

[00:51:09] Donnell: Yeah,

[00:51:09] Jennifer: So let's talk about the institution. Why are you I'm laughing,

[00:51:19] Donnell: I just don't know if he know what he meant by ,that because I watched the interview. I don't watch people tell me to watch clip I watched the whole interview.

[00:51:27] Jennifer: Yeah, and I'm not saying he knew either.

[00:51:30] Donnell: Yeah,

[00:51:31] Jennifer: I'm not looking for him to say either. I mean, I'm just asking you, do you think the Institution of the Church is whack?

[00:51:37] Donnell: Yeah, I agree that there's some problems with the way the church is established. That's why I do the work of deconstruction and decolonization. That's why I do that work publicly, to let other people know, you know, why in particular, these institutions may or may not be whack. Because there are instances in which the institution is good, and we can hold on to that. We can be like, hey, this is good. We gonna keep this. But we gonna let go of this sexism, we gonna let go of this homophobia, we gonna let go of this abuse, and the silent on abuse in church spaces. We can let go of those things and hold on to what's good. So yeah, I feel like it, there's a lot of pieces and parts of this institution that make it whack. So overall, it would have to be, you know, out of whack, at least, until we, can, make it people oriented.

[00:52:19] Jennifer: Well, and I agree with that, I don't know what Ty's thoughts were or what he was thinking, but what I will tell you is, most people would say, not the Institution of the Church, but church is whack, period. That's why a lot of people aren't there.

[00:52:32] Donnell: Mm hmm.

[00:52:33] Jennifer: So I don't know why people was acting like that was so, because you saw, Oh, I love my church. Do you really? Like, yeah, I mean, there are people who don't believe in church hurt, there are people who, if you've never experienced church hurt, God bless you. I'm so happy for you. But there are so many people. Yes, it must be nice. But there are so many people that have, if you don't know what we're talking about, when we talk about the inappropriateness of churches. There's a lot of inappropriateness in churches, and we're not talking about Eddie Long inappropriateness. We're talking about some downright pastors in your business when they shouldn't be, knowing stuff about you. We're not talking about the major sexism and the homophobia. We're just talking about just out of order, no boundaries. Just stuff that just should not be happening.

[00:53:16] Donnell: Literally and I feel like I want to make it a point to you. This term church hurt I feel like minimizes the gravity of what people are talking about when they talk about church hurt. Cause this is not, I don't think it's church hurt. I don't think that's an accurate term that captures the weight of what people have been sharing about their experiences with the church hurt. We're talking about church abuse. I think we're talking about church abuse.

[00:53:41] Jennifer: Yes,

[00:53:42] Donnell: Like church trauma.

[00:53:43] Jennifer: Trauma. Yes. And what does trauma do to you? Like, people don't understand that folks spend lifetime in therapy over trauma. You work through trauma. You deal with trauma. But you don't know, you don't really like get over trauma.

[00:53:59] Donnell: Literally.

[00:54:00] Jennifer: I'm telling you that as a therapist. That's not something that you just like, hopscotch jumping and you, like that's not what happens. And some of the trauma that I know of, some of the trauma that I've been through myself.

[00:54:09] Donnell: Mm hmm.

[00:54:09] Jennifer: Changes your entire life. People make whole decisions, get married and do all kinds of things because of the church.

[00:54:15] Donnell: Mm hmm.

[00:54:16] Jennifer: And what I have found is, is that you can run, like they'll tell you, run it for Jesus, you can run, run, run. And the church will leave you on the side of the road with a flat tire and not care nothing about you. I've seen it. And then what kills me is, is that when something happens or your pastor get caught up, it's almost like I heard, my friend Jason McCrae saying this the other day, he understand how, you know, Trump supporters are, you know, they're like cultish, but people are like that with the church too. You don't believe nothing about your pastor when you hear it. And it could be all kind of evidence. Not my pastor. Huh?

[00:54:51] Donnell: Because again, like, again, it's these questions. It's like you ask the question, what if it is your pastor? And that unravels so much. 'cause it's like, oh, what else is going on?

[00:54:59] Jennifer: Not my pastor.

[00:55:01] Donnell: Mm-Hmm.

[00:55:01] Jennifer: Oh, ain't no way.

[00:55:02] Donnell: it's a protection mechanism. They trying to protect themselves. Mm-Hmm.

[00:55:06] Jennifer: I was talking to somebody the other day. Oh, my pastor ain't in trouble. You sure? You sure? You might want to rethink that because it's possible. Pastors are human. And let me say this, a lot of the trouble that the pastors get into is because y'all won't let them be human.

[00:55:22] Donnell: Yeah.

[00:55:23] Jennifer: But that's a whole nother, I won't go there because, you know, I'll get in trouble. So let me not talk about that. Cause that's another show another day. I don't even want to go there right now, but I'm just saying like, stop that. Like, please don't stop downplaying what people have been through behind y'all religiousness. And what y'all say is holy. Holiness is still right. No, what you're saying, you think is still right. But is what you're saying really holy?

[00:55:47] Donnell: Yeah. Who decided what holiness was? See that's a decolonization question. Let's get to the root of this thing. Who decided what was holy and what was evil?

[00:55:58] Jennifer: They don't want to decide that though. But just like they done decided who going to hell and who not. And where it is and how it looks. And I mean, you been there? Let me know. Somebody been there and came back?

[00:56:08] Donnell: They don't exist.

[00:56:09] Jennifer: So I'm just saying,

[00:56:11] Donnell: Bishop Pearson knew that.

[00:56:12] Jennifer: But you can't tell. I'm just saying like folks. Some information is right here in your face and you refuse to accept it. And so that's one of the reasons why I invited you on because people need to hear a different perspective. Now, truth of the matter is we can only put the information out there, whether you try to hear it and digest it or not, it's totally up to you, ladies and gentlemen, but you can't say that it's not out here for you. All the information that you need is right here at your fingertips. You just have to listen and receive it. Just like your freedom is right here at your fingertips.

[00:56:45] Donnell: Yeah.

[00:56:45] Jennifer: So I urge people to, you know, take the time and digest this podcast. Listen to it, you know, a couple of times cause Donnell broke down a whole bunch of stuff here. I know I laughed and he laughed, but this is serious because there are a lot of people who are bound up by religion and it's sad because you're not living your best life.

[00:57:06] Donnell: Yeah, I just want to say that the work that I'm doing, the reason why I say love and liberation at the end of every one of my videos is because at the roots, at the foundation, at the core, when you dig up the earth and look at the roots, that's at the root of the work that I'm doing, and the work that other people are doing, who are doing this work publicly. But for me specifically, that's my ethic. I want to get people free. I want people to be free to rethink, reimagine in a way that helps them. And it's done out of love. These, the videos that I make are, you know, are extensive. They're all researched. I do scripts for all of them. You know, invite other clips and put clips in there to make it more engaging so people can stay and digest the information in a way that's, you know, not so stale. This is a labor of love that I'm doing for people.And as of right now, I'm not, I don't get paid to do this, I don't get paid per se to, to do this wordonnellwritesitely not for the amount of work that I'm time that I'm putting into it. but it's really done out of love and I want to help people to get free. And freedom doesn't have to mean destruction of everything that you ever know. It just means, We have to reimagine some things and think about how it impacts us and other people.

[00:58:14] Jennifer: Yeah. Freedom for me being able to see things from a new perspective and then govern yourself accordingly once no differently. But listen, Donnell, tell them how to find you. Tell them how to support your love mission here. I think it's your ministry. give them your cash app or something, but let them know how to find you and all of that.

[00:58:32] Donnell: Right. Sounds good. You can find me on Instagram and TikTok as @donnellwrites, that's D O N N E L L, writes as in writing. And you can find me on Instagram and TikTok and also on YouTube as well.So I'm trying to incorporate more YouTube content because a lot of people don't have social media that they, and they use YouTube. So I want people to have the information, accessible to them. And so I'm going to start doing more content creation on there and posting the videos over there. So if you could follow over there, I'm sharing it with someone who needs it. And I'm also on all the payment platforms as donnellwrites as well. Same spelling. if you want to support the work that I'm doing, and things like that, it goes a long way, helps me to invest and get the books I need and, you know, get the materials I need to continue to create the content that I do. You know, with thought and intention for you all. So I really appreciate the support so far. And thank you again, Jennifer, for having me on.

[00:59:28] Jennifer: Yes. Listen, ladies and gentlemen, it's Sunday. Send your tithes to Donnell. Gotten your word today. It's been a great Sunday. We've enjoyed this time. My brother, I appreciate you. I will be in touch with you. Love and liberation to you as well. This has been great. Thank you so much for the work you do. Listen, don't stop. Okay. Promise me you won't stop. You, you are helping people. You are helping people and so much love to you and your beautiful wife. Take good care and we will talk soon. All right.

[01:00:00] Donnell: All right. Thank you so much.

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