Incest & Sexual Abuse As It Relates To People of Color

Trigger Warning: Please listen with your best interest in mind

In this powerful episode, Lynda and Jennifer delve into the critical conversation surrounding the support and healing journey of individuals and families affected by abuse. Their candid discussion sheds light on the necessity of taking action beyond prayer and seeking professional help to navigate the aftermath of such traumatic experiences. This conversation will be healing for some and hopefully break some of the generational curses we see.

You can listen to the full episode via Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or YouTube.

Key Highlights:

- The Role of Faith and Action: Lynda emphasizes the importance of not only relying on prayer within the black community but also taking concrete steps to ensure the well-being and healing of those affected by abuse.

- The Need for More than Prayer: Jennifer passionately advocates for proactive measures beyond prayer, especially in cases of molestation, incest, or abuse. She stresses the importance of emotional, mental, and psychological support, setting boundaries, and the crucial role of parental support in the healing process.

- Supporting Parents and Guardians: The conversation acknowledges the profound impact abuse news has on parents and guardians, highlighting their need for support and guidance to navigate their own healing journey while protecting and supporting their child.

- Creating Safe Spaces: Both speakers address the importance of creating safe environments, both at home and in professional settings, to protect and support abuse survivors. They discuss the necessity of policies and procedures in schools and workplaces to ensure the safety and confidentiality of those affected.

- Resources and Advocacy: The episode concludes with valuable resources for listeners who may know a child affected by sexual abuse. Lynda provides the National Sexual Assault Hotline 1800 656 4673 and encourages listeners to report abuse to family and protective services departments in their respective states.

Check out the full transcript at the end.

Lynda Carmouche

Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/lynda.carmouche

Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/lyndacarmouche

TikTok - @user8052079761125

Jennifer Wiley

https://www.thejenniferexperience.com/

Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/thejenniferexp

Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/thejenniferexperience

TikTok - @thejenniferexp

LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/thejenniferexperience/

Until we meet again, we wish all our listeners well and peace. Thank you for tuning in to this important conversation.

Full episode transcript:

[00:00:07] Jennifer: Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for joining us today. One of our very first episodes that we have loading here on Different Perspectives. I have a very, very, very special guest that has agreed to come on and talk about something that's very important. I think the black community needs to hear it. I think my followers need to hear it and I think it's going to be beneficial to everyone that is listening. I want to introduce to some of you and present to others,Ms. Lynda Karmouche, she is the chief executive of Lynda Karmouche Psychotherapy and Training. She is known for her powerful yet candid techniques of connecting with people from all walks of life and masterfully addressing tough issues. Lynda's roots are embedded in Lake Providence, Louisiana. This town, Time Magazine and CNN has named the poorest town in the U. S. Lynda is a two time graduate of Southern University, which I know she's proud of y'all, and is a licensed psychotherapist with over 27 years of experience in mental health. Currently, she is a trauma informed consultant, speaker, and trainer helping organizations address the impact of trauma, improve workplace culture, and implement trauma informed restorative practices. In March 2024, she will launch her own podcast called The Elephant Room that will help individuals address the big elephant in the room. I trust and believe I'm going to be a guest on that podcast. So I want to again introduce to some and present to others, Ms. Lynda, here she is, ladies and gentlemen. Give her a round of applause at home. Everybody.

[00:01:56] Lynda: Thank you. Thank you so much, Jennifer, for having me as a guest. I am greatly appreciative because this topic is definitely a topic that we need to discuss before we jump into it. I just want to put a disclaimer out there that though I am a licensed psychotherapist, I am not functioning as a psychotherapist to anyone on this podcast, all the information I share is educational and should be used for educational purposes. If something comes up, we recommend that you reach out to a licensed healthcare professional to seek attention.

[00:02:37] Jennifer: Absolutely. And as I have stated in the credits, and you will hear this throughout the show and even on the commercials, all of the Different Perspective podcasts recordings are for you to listen with your best interest in mind. Please be advised that there is a trigger warning for this particular show. So if indeed the content and information that we're giving is too much for you. Do not hesitate to disconnect. We will not be offended. We will not be hurt. We wish you well and we want the best for you. And with that, let's begin.

[00:03:12] Lynda: Let's get into it. So, incest and sexual abuse in the African American community. That's what we're talking about.

[00:03:21] Jennifer: Yes, ma'am.

[00:03:22] Lynda: So when you think about that in our communities, silence often covers the painful realities of incest and sexual abuse, which unfortunately leaves survivors to carry their burdens alone.

[00:03:40] Jennifer: Right. Right.

[00:03:40] Lynda: A really tough place because when you talk about sexual abuse and incest, most of the times you're talking about children. For a child to have to walk through such a horrific experience alone and everyone around them is being silent, it's a lot. It is time for us to break that cycle of silence and shame and, speak up. And speak out about it. I believe that we have to create a safe space for healing and support by talking about these issues openly without having fear. We have to begin to have those discussions, not only behind closed doors. But like you're doing, Jennifer, on platforms where the general population can have access and understand some of the things that we see, we hear, we know, but we have not been talking about.

[00:04:40] Jennifer: Yeah. You know what I would ask you first, based on your expertise on this. Why do you think it is so difficult, in our culture? Because I've seen this in our culture. Obviously, I'm a, incest and molestation victim and survivor. Why do you think it is so difficult for, black families to hold our family members accountable.

[00:05:04] Lynda: I think there's a number of reasons why. One is really not understanding the impact that it has on a child. Another reason I think is fear. People oftentimes fear what's going to happen after this. How will people see me if I speak up? What if my child is not being honest? What if the person I have to report is someone who is deemed important? There's a lot of things people think about and reasons why they don't report. I think the unfortunate thing is people don't understand when you maintain your silence, we send underlying messages about the actual sexual abuse. We normalize, we accept it. Silence can unintentionally signal that sexual abuse is acceptable or that it's just not serious enough to warrant attention and action. That's not something we want to normalize ever.

[00:06:03] Jennifer: Yeah. I've heard people give different reasons. I was even watching a documentary the other day. And they were talking about the abuse and it had happened past tense. Right. And the victim, was an adult and the parents had found out later on in life. And, you know, they were making statements like, well, at this point, you know, there's no point of saying anything because that would tear up people's homes and families and churches and things of that nature. And I just was thinking, but you've already destroyed the child.

[00:06:33] Lynda: Yes, 100%. And, and let me say this Just because time has passed does not mean it diminishes the impact of the sexual abuse, this myth that time heals all It's not true. Right. Time does not heal all. You can have someone who is sexually abused at 9 or 10, and if that is not dealt with, they're not able to work through it and try to heal from it, they can be 79 and still impacted by what happened at 9 or 10 years old.

[00:07:07] Jennifer: Listen, my first sexual abuse experience was around nine or 10. And even though I've had extensive therapy and I mean extensive, I've had some of the best therapists, I think, money can probably buy. At 43, I am still affected and will be, I think, probably for forever. I don't think it'll ever be something that, will leave me, so to speak. I think a lot of healing has taken place, you know, based on that. And I can live my life in somewhat of a normal way when you look at boundaries and what's normal sexual wise. but that experience of taking your innocence away. That will never go away. That that will never change. I can't get that back. Ever.

[00:07:54] Lynda: Ever. You took the word out of my mouth. Ever. Yeah. And I think the sad thing is when we are silent about it or when we make excuses, because in the scenario that you shared about the family saying, Oh, it's going to rip somebody's family apart. When you make excuses, you are really siding with the perpetrator, which makes it harder for the victim to speak up and move forward in their healing. It is not an easy task for someone to come forth and say, I was violated. Especially a child. Yes, I was violated, even when you have lived through it and you finally get the strength in your twenties, thirties, forties, fifties, sixties. Because sometimes people don't ever tell. Right. When you finally get the strength to, to face your loved ones and say, this happened, I was h I was broken. I was harmed. I was violated. And now you're going to respond by saying, well, let's protect the person who hurt you and keep quiet and make sure that their family is okay.

[00:09:04] Jennifer: Yeah. Do you think that our culture somehow thinks that because of the way that the system is set up, okay, against our culture anyway, like we're framed to think that African Americans and the law don't mix well together already. So do you feel like the family dynamics are we can deal with our own better than the law can?

[00:09:26] Lynda: I do think that there is a component where people don't report because of some of the systemic issues that culturally we've had to deal with. But I don't know if we're not reporting because we feel we can handle it better than the law. I think when we don't report, we're also not handling it. We're wishing it away. We're closing the door on it. We're wanting the child to grow up and hush up about it. We're keeping it in the dark. And what it does is it further victimizes the person who walked through that season, you know, it puts them out there on an island by themselves and they're having to stand alone. And sometimes they blame the victim, They say that the victim did something to deserve it. Let me address that elephant in the room. The victim is never the blame. There is nothing that anyone could ever do to deserve sexual abuse. And children cannot give consent to have, I'm sorry, but I, I, I get so sick of hearing where people, and even today, because we hear this with celebrities a lot, children cannot get consent to have sex. Please stop that. Please stop that. Please, please stop that. It's absurd for us to even say that as people, that a child told you it was okay to have sex with them. That is a lie. Yes. Yes. A child cannot give you a 13 year old, they cannot give you permission and you think in your right mind, and maybe I should emphasize in your right mind. Yes. That it is okay to sleep with a child. It's not. Because developmentally, a child doesn't understand what comes along with all of that. Developmentally they're not there and I'm going to take it a step further. We oftentimes think stranger danger, stop teaching children stranger danger because statistically 93 percent of the of known victims were victimized by people they knew and trusted.

[00:11:37] Jennifer: What, what percent?

[00:11:41] Lynda: 93 percent that only leaves 7 percent for strangers. So if we're teaching our children stranger danger, we've left them out in the cold. We've not protected them. We've not equipped them to prevent child sexual abuse because we're saying that this 93% They're safe and they're not, it's the

[00:12:02] Jennifer: 93 percent?

[00:12:05] Lynda: That yes. 93%. And that's a national rating. That's not a Texas thing, a Louisiana thing. That's a national rating.

[00:12:16] Jennifer: So that's not the stranger molesting your kids.

[00:12:21] Lynda: No, no. Yeah, it's the uncle. It's the boyfriend. Let me say this child sexual abuse perpetrators is not limited to males only. There are female perpetrators.

[00:12:37] Jennifer: Oh, now you're about to, you're about to offend some people.

[00:12:39] Lynda: Because in our society we believe when you hear child sexual abuse that it is a man sexually abusing a girl. That is not our truth. And when we don't open up our minds to see the full truth, we set ourselves up to allow our children to continue to be hurt.

[00:13:01] Jennifer: So give us an example of, how you have seen it be with a woman.

[00:13:06] Lynda: I have experienced a mom sexually abusing her son. We've seen babysitters, female babysitters, sexually abusing the male child that they're babysitting.

[00:13:19] Jennifer: And how old are these boys?

[00:13:23] Lynda: It can be any age. The other thing is it's not always male to female. It can be same sex. We have to be able to have these types of conversations and address what is before us. Child sexual abuse is real. Okay. I want to jump in with a few statistics to show us how real it is, Jennifer. Rain is the national organization that, does a lot of work to help survivors of rape, incest, and sexual abuse, in our country. And according to the statistics that they have right now, every nine minutes, nine, child protective services either substantiates or finds hard evidence for child abuse. For child sexual abuse, every nine minutes. This is not just the calls that's coming in. This is now we have evidence to prove that there has been child sexual abuse. Every nine minutes. Do you know how often that is?

[00:14:33] Jennifer: Too often.

[00:14:34] Lynda: In the fiscal year of 2016, there were 57, 329 evidence was found that they were victims of child sexual abuse. over 57, 000. And 82 percent of all victims under 18 are female. And we're wondering what's going on with our girls. 82% Of that number were females before the age of 18. This is why we cannot afford to be silent.

[00:15:04] Jennifer: Yeah, no, you just can't. Those numbers are staggering. Like that's shocking. It's even though I'm not shocked. I'm shocked. Just because this should be something that we are more aware of now more than ever, I would think.

[00:15:19] Lynda: And there's not enough conversation going on about it.

[00:15:22] Jennifer: But now here's the thing, I listened to your wording and you said child Protective Services found hard evidence and I'm asking this question because this has been something that has been a thorn in my side out of all of that evidence. do you have an idea how many of those perpetrators were actually prosecuted and went to jail?

[00:15:42] Lynda: I don't know. I don't know, but this does validate why we have to speak up because the more evidence they have, the better opportunity they have to convict.

[00:15:58] Jennifer: I've always wondered about that because when you are incest victim, obviously that is within your family. Correct. And you have several people within your family that's done that to you. I look at that and I, I know within my personal situation, no one was ever prosecuted, even though there was evidence. But even when I got into CPS custody, I was in group homes with other girls and when they would share their stories, what I found odd was that none of their perpetrators were prosecuted either. And most of the time it was because they were family. It was because they were family. And so I don't know if people understand what that does to our children, what that did to me, what that did to us, what that says, because even though we want to be protective, quote unquote, of the black family, I think it's a detriment when we do not hold people accountable for their actions that do things to destroy the very core and spirit and soul of our children.

[00:17:03] Lynda: Yes.

[00:17:03] Jennifer: Does that make sense?

[00:17:05] Lynda: It does. It actually empowers the abuser when we don't speak up. What it says is I'm going to give you a ticket to keep doing what you're doing without consequences. And we are naive to think that Uncle so and so did it to this person and he never is going to do it again. You are naive to think that. You are naive. Often times the behavior is repeated or escalated. Often times. we have to speak up, and not just to each other. Sometimes what I have heard people say is, well, I told my cousin, but I told my cousin, don't tell anybody. There are some things that should never be a secret. And abuse. It's one of them. We have to love people enough to tell that they're being heard, especially when it's a child. And I don't think, Jennifer, that's limited to family members. I think we all have a responsibility in the community in which we live. The jobs that we have, if we work with children, we all have a responsibility to speak up and not brush it under the table. The first 18 years of my career as a psychotherapist, a lot of my clients had experienced child sexual abuse. Unfortunately, some of my preschoolers had experienced child sexual abuse at school at the hands of another child. Preschoolers,

[00:18:36] Jennifer: Which would be age three or four.

[00:18:39] Lynda: Yes. Three and four. Though that other child is doing what they've even either seen or has been done to them. It is never okay for us to brush it under the rug and say, Oh, it's a child to a child. It's never okay. Are we going to take the other four year old and lock them up in detention? Of course not. But it definitely is a red flag that something's going on that we need to report so that the powers that be can get in there and see what is going on with that baby. That he or she thinks it's okay to go to school and do what they have seen or experienced.

[00:19:17] Jennifer: You know what, I am glad that you said that because I think our culture sometimes really lacks good boundaries, and we don't like to say that. Like, we don't like to talk about that some of the things that we have made okay are inappropriate. Some of the language that we use to call certain things is not okay. And so, some of the ways that I think we do things, I think we've kind of, made that something that is just kind of in right now for the time, but it's really inappropriate and we really need to correct the behavior.

[00:19:48] Lynda: I would agree.

[00:19:49] Jennifer: But we would rather, you know, just kind of say, Oh, you know, that's just what kids do. No, that's, that's not what kids do. Yes. And that's not appropriate. That means that child has seen something, but see, we don't really want to find out what that child has seen because then it may lead to something else and we have to deal with a bigger issue.

[00:20:06] Lynda: Yes. Yes.

[00:20:08] Jennifer: Yes. And so, so the biggest thing that I've seen, at least with my clients sometimes, is that when something else leads to a bigger issue that is covered, we will avoid that at all costs at the expense of a child.

[00:20:23] Lynda: You said something key. You said boundaries. Even children should be taught healthy boundaries.

[00:20:30] Jennifer: Say that again, please.

[00:20:31] Lynda: You should not be allowed child to come into the stall where I am to do anything. Not even to just stand and look. That's a boundary issue. We have to begin to teach boundaries before something happened. There is something called prevention when it comes to child sexual abuse. We spend a lot of time on intervention in our society. We want to go to therapy and we want to do some other things to help the person after the fact, but there are some things that we can do, not just as parents, but as a community, as a society, education is key. One of the biggest things we can do is. Stop teaching our children to call their genitalia something that it is not. Okay. Let's go ahead and let's get into it, Jennifer. Listen, listen. Now you know you about to make big mama upset. Let's get into it. Tell me, Jennifer, tell me as a person, not as a professional, have you ever heard a parent teach a child or an adult who refers to their genitalia as something other than its proper name?

[00:21:46] Jennifer: You know, I have, you know, I have.

[00:21:48] Lynda: What, have you heard? I have to know. What did you hear?

[00:21:51] Jennifer: Oh my girl. I don't want, I don't want to get no hate mail. I mean, I've heard everything from kitty cat to, what is it? I heard a

[00:22:03] Lynda: pocketbook get to the toot. Yes.

[00:22:07] Jennifer: What, what, some, what, what was they call it?

what? Oh, Tally Wacka. Yeah.

[00:22:12] Lynda: Yes. Why is it when there is a nose, we're calling a nose a nose, we're calling an eye an eye, an ear an ear, but when it comes to our vagina and our penis, we're calling it something else. What it does is it teaches that child that there is something wrong, there's secrecy, there's something bad about it. So we have to give it a nickname.

[00:22:42] Jennifer: I think, I think black people think vagina and penis is a bad word.

[00:22:47] Lynda: And it's not, it's not. And I can tell you when my sister had her children, I called her and said, we have to begin to teach them the proper names. And she says, oh, I'm not teaching them that. What if they go in the store and say it? Well, if they go in the store and say it, they just say it. But children are not walking around saying vagina, penis.

[00:23:10] Jennifer: Well, you're right. They're not. They're not.

[00:23:12] Lynda: We as adults. We are so conditioned to believe that we have been conditioned that something is wrong with it.

[00:23:21] Jennifer: You know, certain subjects we don't want to talk about.

[00:23:24] Lynda: There it is right there.

[00:23:25] Jennifer: I mean. Cause guess what? If we're going to name stuff properly, and we're going to talk about penis and vagina, then eventually we have to talk about the S word too.

[00:23:34] Lynda: Yes. I know you didn't just say the S word.

[00:23:40] Jennifer: Yes I did! Because we don't want to talk about that either.

[00:23:46] Lynda: It must be silly.

[00:23:48] Jennifer: It starts with S and ends with X.

[00:23:52] Lynda: But watch this. Watch When to have the healthy conversations and educate our children. We open the door for things to happen to them that could impact them the rest of their lives.

[00:24:11] Jennifer: That is our truth.

[00:24:13] Lynda: When we neglect to have healthy conversations with our children about things like sex, we opened the door. For things to happen to them and for them to engage in activities that can negatively impact them the rest of their lives. I'm going to give you an example.

[00:24:39] Jennifer: Go ahead. Cause you know, we need one.

[00:24:41] Lynda: I taught children, little children. And I'm going to use my niece as an example. I taught her that you have a vagina and boys have a penis. This is your vagina. Nobody gets to touch it without permission. Not even the doctor. If your mom is not in the room, it's a no. It's yours. If somebody comes near it, somebody asks to touch it, it's yours. You say no. And you say no loud. Now, vagina is not a bad word. My niece is now 16 and she can have a conversation about it and it doesn't trip her up. It's ownership. But we, as the adults, we have to be more comfortable with these conversations before we can educate our children. There is research that supports us teaching our children the proper terms in it being a preventive because we begin to own our body and we begin to understand that it's not okay for anybody to do anything. If children don't feel safe having conversations, they're not going to report when someone has violated them. And I think what we really need to look at, though, because. A part of this is kind of hypocritical as a culture, we listen to music and watch movies all day long that are an emphasis on the S word. And talk about it. We see it. I mean, literally. And our children listen to these songs and sing these songs and say other words for penis and vagina on a regular basis. And so to me, for it to be 2024, it's kind of ridiculous, I'm going to say, that we cannot talk about a penis and a vagina now, I'll even admit my son is 17 now and he's not gonna listen to this podcast So i'm gonna say it Anyway, I just had to have a conversation. He's not I just had to have a conversation with him the other day because he's 17 And he's girl crazy. And I was saying to him, you need to keep your little wee wee in your bag.

[00:26:41] Jennifer: I know you did not.

[00:26:43] Lynda: I did! I did! I did! I did! It is, it is, listen, these are my confessions. And listen, the reason why I'm confessing this to you listeners is because, and let me, before y'all hang me and crucify me. Don't judge. Yeah, the reason why I said that was because his mother is having a difficulty in accepting the fact that her son is growing up and women are, these girls are coming after him full force. And he is growing. I am well aware he has a penis, ladies and gentlemen. I just was not ready to say penis. He even said to me, mom, why you have to call it a wee wee? Because he knew. But watch this. Watch this. One of the questions parents would ask all the time is, well, when should I start using those words with my kids?

[00:27:41] Jennifer: When they can talk.

[00:27:42] Lynda: Thank you. When do you use nose? When do you say eye? Right. When do you say mouth? Cause here's the thing, the worst thing that could happen is somebody come to you and say, your toot toot hurt. What's your toot toot? Yes. Yes. What? Your what hurt? Yes. We are uncomfortable and therefore we oftentimes use our discomfort to, limit what we do and what we say and what we teach to our little ones.

[00:28:10] Jennifer: But why are we uncomfortable, Lynda? That's what I want to know.

---

[00:31:10] Jennifer: But why are we uncomfortable, Lynda? That's what I want to know. Why are we so uncomfortable with this?

[00:31:15] Lynda: Because we've been taught that it's not good and you shouldn't say that and you're bad if you say that. And that's not true. That's not true at all. We have to begin to step outside of that box because it's not working for us. Yeah. There's so many times that children would have reported if their parents were comfortable and they don't. We say come to me and talk to me about anything, but we're saying, let's talk about the birds and the bees. It's not the birds or the bees. All of those things have created a culture of secrecy, and we have to get rid of the secrets.

[00:31:50] Jennifer: I can tell you, that is one thing as a victim that I did that was impressed upon me in a lot of my therapy, was that secrets are bad. Secrets are dangerous because when you are an abused child, your perpetrator always tells you everything is a secret. Everything we do is a secret. Don't tell anybody. So once I got deep into therapy, because I can tell you, I really did not know or I did not understand. Let me say it like that. My understanding was not of such to where I really understood that you should not. That it was not okay to sleep with your relatives until I was in my early 20s. That's how long it took to undo the damage in my mind. But part of that was me understanding that secrets are not healthy. I mean, literally all of the secrets that I was holding in because so many people had told me not to say anything about this, that, and the other. It really is because when we make children keep secrets. We teach them to lie. When really there's no reason that a child should have to keep anything a secret. Now I know black folks got this thing what goes on in our house stays in this house. But really that's kind of dangerous now because a lot of stuff that's going on in our house shouldn't be going on in our house.

[00:33:00] Lynda: Well it goes back to that, 90 plus percent perpetrators are people that we know and love.

[00:33:06] Jennifer: Right. Let's remind the people 93%. Yes. So while we're impressed upon these children, what goes on in this house, you stay in this house and we should keep secrets and keep family business, family business. We're encouraging them to lie and cover up abuse.

[00:33:22] Lynda: Yes. And, and let's remember also, Jennifer, that when children are growing up, we are teaching them foundational principles. Yes. So let's say that it's me and I have a daughter and I'm married and I'm going to meet my boo. With my daughter in the car. And then I say to my daughter, now don't tell your daddy where we went. Even though it's not related to abuse, the foundational principle that I'm teaching my daughter is that you hide, you lie, and you keep secrets. So, they're going to transfer that to other areas of their life.

[00:34:06] Jennifer: Yes.

[00:34:07] Lynda: Sometimes that transference happens when we really do want them to be honest and open.

[00:34:14] Jennifer: Yes. Yes. Yes.

[00:34:16] Lynda: Boundaries are so important. And I'm going to tell you a lot of the times we, completely omit the boundaries of children. And I'm going to give you a big one. I don't even think you're ready for it. Jennifer, if you have a child who is five and you go to a family reunion and your uncle, who that child doesn't know, never met, walks up to that child and say, give me a hug. And that child shrugs to the parent's leg. Oftentimes, what would we, what, what, what do we say in our culture? Go hug your uncle, baby. We force them. We force them to hug someone who they're uncomfortable hugging. Let me show you how this aligns. That child should have a boundary that says if something is uncomfortable for them, they should have a right to be able to say no. Because that doesn't feel good to them. A lot of the times, perpetrators start grooming before they actually commit the act of sexual abuse. If someone, we shouldn't just ask our kids, did somebody touch you? Because touching is not the only form of sexual abuse. We should be teaching them if you're ever in an uncomfortable situation with someone you can report it. You should report it. Period.

[00:35:35] Jennifer: And see, this is the thing. When Lynda is talking about grooming. Let me be very clear with people. Because when you are not an abuse victim or a molestation victim or incest victim, you don't seem to really get what grooming means. Me being a victim, I can tell you, when my stepfather did what he did to me, it was not painful because it happened over a period of time where he made it to where it was easy for me to even take in, if you will, because it was not something that was what you would see on TV as a violent rape.

[00:36:08] Lynda: Yes.

[00:36:09] Jennifer: That's not what it was. It was touching that led to something else. That led to something else. That led to something else over a year period of time. Do you know what you can do to a child in that amount of time?

[00:36:22] Lynda: Yes. So there never, there's a psychological piece.

[00:36:26] Jennifer: Exactly. And he was very caring to me. It doesn't have to be the person that beats the child. It can be the person that always give this child money. It can be the person that saved the child when they're in trouble. But we're not paying attention to that. We're also not paying attention to when children act a certain way, especially young ladies, because we say they just fast or they just out there like that. No, a lot of these young ladies have been touched. Yeah. And their desire to do certain things comes from being molested. And we don't want to talk about that. We just want to say they're fast. No, that's not what that is. But see, when you get into that area, then, parents get offended. Because it's like, well, what are you trying to say? We're saying it.

[00:37:10] Lynda: Yeah, we're saying that we have to be open minded because when someone is grooming a child, they're building a relationship of trust and emotional connection with that child.

[00:37:21] Jennifer: And a child may not realize.

[00:37:24] Lynda: Yes. Yes.

[00:37:25] Jennifer: That they're being abused because the child may look at this person as their ally.

[00:37:31] Lynda: Yes. Yes. 100 percent because they're, they're aiming to manipulate, exploit, or abuse the child at some point.

[00:37:39] Jennifer: Now I want to know, what do you think about generational incest that goes from one line to the next. Like, you know, you have a mother that it was done to her and somehow some way it happens to the child and the mother says to themselves, well, I survived it. She'll survive it. Or he'll survive it.

[00:37:59] Lynda: It becomes a culture that is accepted in some families. Unfortunately, I've seen it. I've worked with families where it had become, acceptable. And there's definitely a psychological component that's at play when you know your child is being abused and you do nothing about it. You say that it's okay. Sometimes the parent is getting benefits from it. For example, if they were abused by their father, and the father is funding their living right now, and the father abusing their daughter. Now, It's going to be okay because he takes care of us. That's also a form of grooming. That person has been groomed. it's just like in trafficking, when girls are trafficked and then someone who was trafficked, now they are out recruiting, psychologically there has been a shift and there are things going on, but it's important that if anybody, family or not knows of that information, that we reported because it's not okay. It doesn't matter how long it's been going on. It is not okay. And the sooner we reported and bring light to the situation, the better it's going to be for everybody. And hopefully we get to stop this person and decrease the number of future victims that they can have.

[00:39:22] Jennifer: Yeah, Yeah, I would agree. I think overall, really as a community, we need to be able to do better with our boundaries. We need to do better with our words. We need to use our words, like they used to tell us as kids, use your words. We really need to use our words because it is clear that our vocabulary is extensive. It is clear that we're able to speak. When we want to, and when we want to talk about certain things we can and we do, but you know, when it's other things we don't. One of the reasons why I wanted to do this show is because this is something that we shy away from yet these statistics that you just rattled off, lets me know that this is something that we need to stop shying away from because more and more children are going through this and it's just repeating itself from generation to generation, because once you allow one child to go through this. And that child thinks that this is the norm. The next generation is going to do the exact same thing.

[00:40:16] Lynda: Yes, because it's been normalized. You mentioned using your words and it brought up something that I definitely want to share with your listeners. If someone comes to you and says they were sexually abused. It doesn't matter the position of the person they are naming as the perpetrator. Please use your words wisely and never make that person feel like they're lying. It is so important. So many of our children have gone to trusted adults. And said, I was touched. I was abused. This person was inappropriate with me and because of their position or because we love them, we say, no, they didn't do that in some form and that's never okay. At that moment, that child needs us. That child needs us to support them, to stand with them, to protect them and to create a safe space where they are not continually victimized.

[00:41:21] Jennifer: So what do you suggest once a child has already been through the process and not been protected? And now we want to take them back into a safe space of being protected. How do you suggest that we then maybe condition them to have words so that it doesn't happen again? Because I know for me, after it happened and I was, you know, already in, some type of situation where I was taken away from my mother, it still happened to me again, and I was told to not keep things a secret, but that doesn't mean that I still didn't. So once abuse has already been discovered. Let me say that. And you want to encourage your child to not let that ever happen again. What do you suggest as a psychotherapist that you say to a child to let them know that, hey, by all means, Speak up if this happens again.

[00:42:13] Lynda: I think relationship is important. Even if you don't know the child. I used to be a foster parent. And one of the first things I would tell my foster daughters is you're important to me. You are so important that whatever is going on, I will do my best to give you my undivided attention and we can work through this together. You have to be in tune. I would give them multiple ways to communicate with me. I worked really hard on building relationships and creating a safe space. I didn't allow company in my house. Because I needed them to know that this space is for you and I, this space is safe. I don't want you to be anxious. I don't want you to be nervous. I want you to be, have that space where you can go and be who you are and heal. In the process, also understanding that everybody deals with it differently. If you're a quiet person, I can't ask you to talk. When I want you to talk, I have to be patient with you. Finding a professional who is skilled in sexual abuse because sometimes we tell people to talk about it to go and get professional help, but what we don't tell them is not every person who is a professional and licensed is the person to help you through sexual abuse. Correct. You have to find someone who has trauma experience because sometimes a professional can hurt you. While they're trying to help you if they are not properly trained. So also not trying to take the child so fast, you know, we want them to get back to normal. Well, it has to be a new normal and we don't know what that looks like. Giving them a safe space to feel what they feel when they feel it. And not trying to rush them through their healing process. If they were on the basketball team, they may not want to play basketball the next year and that's okay. But allowing them to embrace this journey and have an open space to talk about it when they want to talk. Sometimes I find that people feel, Oh, we already talked about that. Why do we have to talk about it again? Well, if that's what they want to talk about, we need to talk about it and it's okay.

[00:44:29] Jennifer: So what do you say to the, the mother or father that says. I didn't mean for this to happen to my child, but it did. Like you just said, I'm tired of talking about it.

[00:44:40] Lynda: I believe mothers and fathers, that have children that have been abused, it is so important that they get their own professional help. Because there is some stuff that they need to process. And they are the first point of contact for that child and what they say or neglect to say can cause more harm to that child. So that's what I would ask them to please get their own professional help. Now, let me just go ahead and throw this nugget out there. And I may get thrown off the show for this, but I'm going to say it. It's okay. to go down to the church and let sister Mary pray for you. But if sister Mary is not trained as a professional, you need sister Mary's prayers, but you also need your own professional to help you walk through this process.

[00:45:31] Jennifer: Oh, you listen. You won't get thrown off here for that. Say that again.

[00:45:35] Lynda: Okay. Sister Mary. Can't be the end all. Be all. I think that is something in our black community, we are gonna pray about it. We are gonna pray about it, but we gonna pray and we gonna do some other stuff to make sure that this baby in this family get what they need so that they can get on their healing journey and move forward from this incident that has occurred.

[00:45:57] Jennifer: I'm gonna say this, Lynda's not saying this, but you gonna have to do more than pray. If your child has been molested, is a victim of incest or any type of abuse, you gonna do need, you gonna need to do more than pray. Yes. Hello, Christians. Hello. Hello, Christians. All the believers that are listening to me, you're going to have to do more than pray. Yes. Because I hear that all the time. We're going to take it to Jesus. You're going to need to do more than do that. It's going to take a little bit more than that. We're going to take it. And I am a believer. We're going to take it to Jesus, but we're also going to do some work to make sure that, you know, we take care of ourselves emotionally, mentally, psychologically. We're going to put up some boundaries. If this baby doesn't want to go to the family reunion, that's fine. We're going to put up some boundaries to protect them. We're not going to isolate them, but we're going to support them on this healing journey while we also support ourselves so that we can heal in the process. Because there is something that happens when a parent gets the news. They were a genuine parent who genuinely tried to protect their child. And for whatever reason, a perpetrator got to their baby. That parent needs some help. They're not bad people, but you have also had an experience and are experiencing some things that you're going to need some help with. You said there's something that happens to that parent, huh?

[00:47:24] Lynda: Yes. You know, so we have to do a better job of, creating those spaces, even professionally, if you're in a profession that works with children, you're a coach, you're a teacher, you work in a community program, we have to also be able to give voice. We have to make sure that our jobs have policies and procedures. You know, if a kid tells a teacher that they were sexually abused, we don't want the teacher going to the teacher next door that doesn't even have anything to do with that kid to say, girl, look what I found out. No, no, no. We have to have some, that's a boundary right there. To protect this child who has been victimized. And but see, this is the thing. This is why there are certain policies and procedures in place for teachers and professionals, that when they see and hear certain things, they are mandated to report certain things. But see, at your house, we can't mandate you to report certain things. So we're saying to you. If you know, or your child is telling you that something has happened, you need to go and get the help that that child needs. And you definitely don't need to protect the perpetrator. If you don't have the money for legal action, you know, there are systems and organizations set up. There should be legal action taken when children have been violated. And I want to make sure that I give two particular resources. If you are aware listeners of a child that has been sexually abused and you're not sure if it was ever reported, there is a national sexual assault hotline that you can call, you can be anywhere. That number is 800 656 4673. That is the National Sexual Assault Hotline. I'm in Texas and every state has a family and protective services department with an 800 number. If you know of a child, be that advocate, be that person that stands up for that child who may not be able to stand up for themselves right now. And make the report.

[00:49:32] Jennifer: Absolutely. Absolutely. On that note, shout out to my godmother, Linda Kinion. She's probably going to listen to this. She was my advocate when I was younger and definitely was my, rescuer, she was a person that was brave enough to reach out to the people that needed to be reached out to. and I am forever grateful for that because that, that definitely, helped to save my life. So let me shout out to someone who was brave enough to speak up for me when I could not speak up for myself. Way back when, yesteryear as they say. A long time ago. So I want to give her her flowers while she's alive and thank her for that. But I also want to thank Miss Linda. You have been great for us today. You have shared so much. I'm going to definitely, put this number for the National Sexual Assault Hotline out there in writing for you guys when you come back and listen to this podcast. I'm also going to have, Miss Lynda's, contact information for her personal business. If you want to reach out to her, you already know how to get in touch with The Jennifer Experience. Again, everything we said here today is crucial. It's important. You hear me? It's important. I urge you to take your time and listen to this, but I urge you to also listen to it with your best interest in mind. Until we meet again, I wish you all well and I bid you peace. Thank you for listening.